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Co-opting the Discussion.
I've been thinking for a bit about the tendency of some men in discussions about the difficulties women face to 'take over' the discussion, or 'turn it around' and make it about men's issues and problems. First of all, this is REALLY annoying, so my first thoughts were pretty much, "Grr. Stop doing that."
However, being of a psychologist's bent, I'm fascinated enough by thought patterns that I wanted to really think about why this happens. It is the easy answer to say, "They do it because they're uncomfortable with the discussion being about women's issues, and refocus it on men as an unconscious expression of male privilege." And, yeah, I suspect that quite often, there's a lot of that in play. However, I wonder if there aren't other issues coming in, as well, particularly when we see this happening with men who are, on the whole, allies to feminist ideas.
I suspect that there's a step-ladder of consciousness raising in male feminism (and take everything further with the caveat that I ain't a guy). First is the idea that women are not treated equally in blatant ways (rape, shut out of jobs, assaulted and insulted, etc.) and that this is wrong. This tends to be a pretty basic understanding, but it can still be a revelation if you came from a certain kind of background. Second is the idea that there are inherent, systemic issues that shape the way we discriminate people based on sex...and that these affect men adversely as well. This is when the male feminist starts to realize that gender roles don't just oppress and limit women, but men as well. Not just his mother, girlfriend, sister, daughter, or friend, but /him/. This is a necessary awakening, I think, for a full understanding of and advocacy against gender discrimination.
However, I also suspect that there's a time period, varying by person, where some people get stuck there. They start seeing every issue regarding feminist ideals by how it also affects men, and thus their own lives. To be charitable, this is a way to internalize the damage that is done, and an attempt to relate to their female allies suffering through a shared experience. And, for men in the stages of awakening gender consciousness, there can be a tremendous urge to share how the status quo affects them: how it feels to know that their female friends probably, at some point, wondered (if only for a moment) if they could be a rapist. How it feels to be mocked for showing too much emotion, or the role-inappropriate emotion. How the rape of males is downplayed, or even a source of humor. And all the ways that, yes, our current gender inequality hurts men as well as women.
Unfortunately, it's the /third/ level of consciousness where a male feminist tends to realize that there are times and places for those discussions, but the varying social context behind the silencing or coopting of women's concerns means that what might have consciously be meant as an attempt to relate and support ends up being a dismissal or downplaying action. (Of course, if someone doesn't get this after having it calmly explained, or insists that it might be like that when Those Guys do it, but not when HE does it, then there's a bigger problem than delayed growth). In the third level, male feminists understand that women need a place to talk about women's issues...because all too often, everything else in the world ends up being about men's issues, whether it started out that way or not.
And, then, somewhere in here is the progression between understanding that pointing out that an action, culture or subculture has a strong, female-hostile streak is not necessarily a condemnation of individual members of that culture, but rather of systemic properties of the cultural norms that make it more likely for women to be made to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome...and thus, protestations of How You're Not Like That and kneejerk defense of the good intentions of members of the subculture are pretty much less than useless. Because, quite often, sexism (racism/classism/and other forms of unwarranted discrimination) isn't about what you do deliberately and with malice aforethought...but what you fall back on when you're /not/ thinking.
However, being of a psychologist's bent, I'm fascinated enough by thought patterns that I wanted to really think about why this happens. It is the easy answer to say, "They do it because they're uncomfortable with the discussion being about women's issues, and refocus it on men as an unconscious expression of male privilege." And, yeah, I suspect that quite often, there's a lot of that in play. However, I wonder if there aren't other issues coming in, as well, particularly when we see this happening with men who are, on the whole, allies to feminist ideas.
I suspect that there's a step-ladder of consciousness raising in male feminism (and take everything further with the caveat that I ain't a guy). First is the idea that women are not treated equally in blatant ways (rape, shut out of jobs, assaulted and insulted, etc.) and that this is wrong. This tends to be a pretty basic understanding, but it can still be a revelation if you came from a certain kind of background. Second is the idea that there are inherent, systemic issues that shape the way we discriminate people based on sex...and that these affect men adversely as well. This is when the male feminist starts to realize that gender roles don't just oppress and limit women, but men as well. Not just his mother, girlfriend, sister, daughter, or friend, but /him/. This is a necessary awakening, I think, for a full understanding of and advocacy against gender discrimination.
However, I also suspect that there's a time period, varying by person, where some people get stuck there. They start seeing every issue regarding feminist ideals by how it also affects men, and thus their own lives. To be charitable, this is a way to internalize the damage that is done, and an attempt to relate to their female allies suffering through a shared experience. And, for men in the stages of awakening gender consciousness, there can be a tremendous urge to share how the status quo affects them: how it feels to know that their female friends probably, at some point, wondered (if only for a moment) if they could be a rapist. How it feels to be mocked for showing too much emotion, or the role-inappropriate emotion. How the rape of males is downplayed, or even a source of humor. And all the ways that, yes, our current gender inequality hurts men as well as women.
Unfortunately, it's the /third/ level of consciousness where a male feminist tends to realize that there are times and places for those discussions, but the varying social context behind the silencing or coopting of women's concerns means that what might have consciously be meant as an attempt to relate and support ends up being a dismissal or downplaying action. (Of course, if someone doesn't get this after having it calmly explained, or insists that it might be like that when Those Guys do it, but not when HE does it, then there's a bigger problem than delayed growth). In the third level, male feminists understand that women need a place to talk about women's issues...because all too often, everything else in the world ends up being about men's issues, whether it started out that way or not.
And, then, somewhere in here is the progression between understanding that pointing out that an action, culture or subculture has a strong, female-hostile streak is not necessarily a condemnation of individual members of that culture, but rather of systemic properties of the cultural norms that make it more likely for women to be made to feel uncomfortable or unwelcome...and thus, protestations of How You're Not Like That and kneejerk defense of the good intentions of members of the subculture are pretty much less than useless. Because, quite often, sexism (racism/classism/and other forms of unwarranted discrimination) isn't about what you do deliberately and with malice aforethought...but what you fall back on when you're /not/ thinking.
no subject
And, honestly, I was trying to portray something other than just the negative; like I said, I think that the revelation that men ARE hurt by gender inequality is an important thing. And I think there /should/ be spaces where men are welcomed to speak of these issues.
What tends to be the problem, though, is when men come into discussions about women's issues and co-opt...and then refuse to understand what they're doing. And it's that latter part that's the real problem, more than just wanting to share how that issue affects them.
I wasn't trying to be entirely negative, but it did end up like that, I fear.
no subject
Thank you for understanding. I was so nervous about posting that, my stomach was tied up in knots.
I understand exactly what you're saying. I've seen it happen, myself. Sometimes it's appropriate, if the conversation is specifically about 'this only happens to women', which I've also seen, but there's also quite a few times where the men just assume that, since the topic is under conversation, obviously it must be assuming it doesn't happen to men.
And as far as rape discussions, unless it's the 'men are all inherent predators' claptrap, there's really no point for any man to pipe up, "Men get raped too!" It's a small fraction of the number of women who get raped, and the number of women rapists are a tiny fraction of the number of male rapists. It's like saying, "you don't jump out of an airplane without a parachute! You'll die!" And they go, "Well, there was that one guy in World War II ... or, if you're still on the ground..." It just makes you want to give 'em the good ol' comic-book 'smack' upside the head.
I think that's probably why it's so easy to focus on the negative. Because it *is* so annoying, because it's frustrating, because it effectively takes what can be a very good conversation, and derails it entirely, and it happens over and over again. I think more than honest-to-goodness problems, more than ethics, more than morals, frustration is really one of the biggest driving factors in why we all do things, in this world. Frustration turns what we know, in our head, to be wrong, and flares it up in our hearts for some sort of action.